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Thursday, August 17, 2017

Live Debate tonight

Greg Johnson stepped up to meet the challenge I threw down on the Darkstream the other night. Tara McCarthy is hosting the debate at 7 PM.

The official topic being debated is: "Are National Socialists a legitimate element of the Alt-Right?"

Greg Johnson argues Yes.

Vox Day argues No.

Labels: , ,

286 Comments:

1 – 200 of 286 Newer› Newest»
Blogger John Williams August 17, 2017 4:04 PM  

Hosting in what venue? Will it be live?

Anonymous Icicle August 17, 2017 4:05 PM  

Sponsored by the Mengele Agrartechnik company.

Anonymous Cinco August 17, 2017 4:09 PM  

VD, I would like to mention that Stefan Molynuex did an excellent interview with Dinesh D'Souza in the last two days that was on this exact topic, and D'Souza kiled it! It may be worth your time.

Blogger Lovekraft August 17, 2017 4:11 PM  

Redirect the alt-white's energies. Security. Logistics. Not subservient but an integral component of the whole.

After extensive screening, it goes without saying.

Anonymous Battlefrog August 17, 2017 4:11 PM  

Does Greg Johnson define the Alt-Right by the 16 points? If not, doesn't the debate just devolve into "what is the Alt-Right?"

Blogger Lovekraft August 17, 2017 4:12 PM  

Ramzpaul also mention VD in very positive light in recent video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8VYmY89_KU

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener August 17, 2017 4:25 PM  

"National Socialists" could also be broken up into the knowingly nonserious LARPers, the genuinely ignorant, and the true believers. I suspect that there are very few true believers with most falling into the genuinely ignorant category.

Anonymous Philipp August 17, 2017 4:26 PM  

Poor Greg Johnson. He has to debate against both Vox and the truth.

Anonymous BBGKB August 17, 2017 4:29 PM  

I wont be there can someone mention for me that WHITE LIVES MATTER triggers leftists more than swastikas, because leftists only ever get caught spray painting one on their homes before they burn it down for insurance money.

Anonymous Jeff Front August 17, 2017 4:34 PM  

and BOOM goes the dynamite

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/another-democrat-starting-trump-impeachment-process/ar-AAqfzlE?OCID=ansmsnnews11

Blogger Xellos August 17, 2017 4:36 PM  

@7 I think it's largely "they can't be bad if the Left hates them".

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener August 17, 2017 4:37 PM  

@10 Good. Let the vermin come out into the light.

Blogger Sam Spade August 17, 2017 4:39 PM  

I like Greg Johnson although he is not well informed regarding European nations. In this matter I think Vox is going to win the debate also.

Anyway I'm sure it's going to be a great covnersation and shows that Greg is not afraid to debate strong opponents unlike Sam Harris orBen Shapiro.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener August 17, 2017 4:43 PM  

@11 That's a big factor, and it's also that the media, Hollywood, and government have completely trashed their credibility so there's some inclination on the right to believe that the opposite of whatever they claim must be true.

Anonymous Jeff August 17, 2017 4:44 PM  

It will be very interesting to hear why Greg Johnson thinks left wing extremists belong in the Alt Right.

Blogger Unknown August 17, 2017 5:01 PM  

Seems so. Taras channel is linked and says this event starts in...set a reminder

Blogger Mercy August 17, 2017 5:04 PM  

Does Greg Johnson define the Alt-Right by the 16 points? If not, doesn't the debate just devolve into "what is the Alt-Right?"

Vox's argument doesn't hinge on the 16 Points. He can simply argue that National Socialism is not of the Right...at all.

I do wonder, though, if we will continue to use the Alt-Right label indefinitely or when that would change. Trump's naming the Alt-Left opens the door to simply going after Alt-*. That could have an even-handed, sensible appeal.

Anonymous Anonymous August 17, 2017 5:04 PM  

Argue on the basis of points 4, 10, 15 and 16, and you will win the debate.

Argue on the basis of point 1, and you will lose the debate.

Anonymous Bobby Farr August 17, 2017 5:08 PM  

@5 It seems it would take an hour just to define the relevant terms. "National socialist" seems to largely be a catch-all pejorative used by the media to describe a tiny and ideologically incoherent group. Spencer is often named as a figurehead and he isn't even a nationalist (more a mutlti-whiteculturalist). They can debate using the policies outlined by Hitler as a guide but then query whether there are any national socialists among the group being labelled "national socialists").

Blogger Quartermain August 17, 2017 5:32 PM  

http://mileswmathis.com/spence.pdf

Anonymous johnc August 17, 2017 5:53 PM  

@6

Very good video.

Anonymous User August 17, 2017 5:55 PM  

Alt-right is just a brand and brands are tools that are used and discarded as appropriate. After we win the label won't even make any sense.

Consider salafist Islam, it burns through brands at a dizzying rate, but their program keeps advancing.

Anonymous RA August 17, 2017 6:18 PM  

I like Martin Armstrong's definition of left vs right though it's not a complete definition IMO. He essentially says the left consists of people who want to impose their will on other people while the right consists of people who want to be left alone. By this standard, all fascist movements are essentially of the left, the left is always the side making trouble for everyone else, etc.

One other comment he offered today is that one should stay away from the cities hosting the Democrat and the Republican conventions in 2020. Implying that these cities will be battlegrounds. Believe the host cities have not been determined yet.

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade August 17, 2017 6:19 PM  

Greg Johnson.
LEL

Anonymous User August 17, 2017 6:21 PM  

Taleb's recent essay on intolerance and renormalization is a blueprint for how the right can pursue a strategy that results in either being left alone or imposing our values on society at large. Since either outcome is broadly acceptable it's a good strategy.

Blogger Lemur August 17, 2017 6:23 PM  

Vox will get wound up by Johnson if he uses his American conception of left/right economics to argue Nazism is a leftist movement.

Far better to argue Nazism was so reactionary and historically bound it while it may have made a few nods to the right, there is little in its essence of application today.

Anonymous Queen v Queen August 17, 2017 6:27 PM  

May the biggest faggot win.

Blogger Lemur August 17, 2017 6:27 PM  

@Ra

The leftist Roman emperors, the leftist absolute monarchies of Europe, the leftist feudal lords, the leftist shogunate, the leftist Holy Roman Empire, all imposing their will on people.

The libertarian outlook is highly reductive and autistic.

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade August 17, 2017 6:28 PM  

These terms of left/right are currently in the process of going obsolete.

Blogger Andrew Taylor August 17, 2017 6:28 PM  

I think a better definition of "right" vs. "left" is in the question of whether we believe agency is equally distributed in even an ethnically homogeneous society, or if stratification and qualitative distinction leading to different roles for those with different inherent abilities are just.

Anonymous Someguy August 17, 2017 6:28 PM  

If the Communists were the Left, and the Nazis, dissatisfied with the Communist version of socialism, produced their own alternate form of socialism, doesn't that make the Nazis the true Alt-Left?

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade August 17, 2017 6:31 PM  

Nobody gives a shit anymore. All the average working middle class white person in America cares about is they are losing their country. Every single time their jobs were shipped overseas it was done in the name of "Muh free market". It may or may not be entirely correct to say "Not real capitalism" but people aren't listening anymore. All they know is that they are despised by their rulers and their standard of living is dropping.

Blogger VD August 17, 2017 6:32 PM  

I find it amusing to be advised on how to debate.

Do you have any idea why people supposedly very skilled at it nevertheless run from debate with me?

You'll find out soon.

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade August 17, 2017 6:32 PM  

All the people know is that they've been screwed over now for generations and it sure as hell hasn't been "neo nazis" (whatever that is) or "white supremacists" (again whatever that is) doing it.

Blogger S1AL August 17, 2017 6:42 PM  

The left-right historical argument is irrelevant. The Nazis were socialist pagans/atheists who engaged in mass murder in the countries they invaded and divided with other socialists. They're radical left by any reasonable definition.

Anonymous ashv August 17, 2017 6:44 PM  

Kaiser Wilhelm II on Hitler: "There's a man alone, without family, without children, without God. Why should he be human?"

http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/Kaiser_Wm_and_Hitler.pdf

That could apply to our Nazi pals today.

Anonymous Microfinch August 17, 2017 6:46 PM  

I've never heard Johnson define his ideal state beyond it being white and ideologically WN. However from comments of his I've read, such as he would ban homeschooling, its seems likely he would favour a stronger state than the traditional 'rights of Englishmen' crowd would allow.

Anonymous Andrew Anglin August 17, 2017 6:50 PM  

anybody who has the courage to Name the Jew is welcome in WN/Hardright. It's just too bad if certain symbols inflame the Jew. In my view, that's all good.....it encourages them to get ahead of themselves, to overreach.

on a related issue, the weather in Lagos is fine. (((They))) will never find me here. I blend right in.

Blogger Matthew August 17, 2017 6:51 PM  

Cinco wrote:VD, I would like to mention that Stefan Molynuex did an excellent interview with Dinesh D'Souza in the last two days that was on this exact topic, and D'Souza kiled it! It may be worth your time.

Dinesh "Dems R da Real Racists" D'Souza.

Blogger VD August 17, 2017 6:53 PM  

Greg Johnson

I issued an open challenge. He was the only one who wasn't afraid to take me on.

Blogger VD August 17, 2017 6:54 PM  

Nobody gives a shit anymore.

Nice to see the pre-debate retreat begin already. You know me well enough to know what is going to happen.

It won't be pretty.

Anonymous Walter Oleg August 17, 2017 6:57 PM  

I have hope the on-going feud between Vox and the Alt-White is just evidence that the Alt-Right already won back most of the Western world. This is just the fight to see what the future world will look like.

It's interesting that the fight between Spencer and Vox is between two people who grew up in economically privileged families.

This is a good sign. It means these leaders could be doing things that made more money and were MUCH easier, but they chose the harder route. They didn't have to take on a life that includes the possibility of being sprayed in the face by acid by people (antifa) who actually got praised by Cucksevatives (Romney, McCain).

Let's just hope this barracks brawl ends soon. Globalists (liberal and neo-Cohen) have to be brought to justice.

Blogger Dos Voltz August 17, 2017 6:59 PM  

Vox has Ayn Rand and Jonah Goldberg (and me) on his side that commies and socialists are collectivists and similar in many ways, so they are left.

Johnson has Moldberg on his side.

This, if we are forced to use old models.

Blogger tz August 17, 2017 7:05 PM  

Even the alt-White aren't all National Socialists. The size, nature, and intrusiveness of government is something there is no agreement on, and I can find socialistic tendencies in the Alt-Lite and the Alt-West, or even those who are stuck in conservatism or some form of libertarianism but support Trump.

That is the entire point. A Communist socialist and National socialist are both socialists.

Even many libertarians, particularly of the Hoppe school that in Democracy: The God that Failed notes that ancap might mean feudalism and monarchy. If I own property and collect rent and put restrictions, how is that different than taxes and regulation by Government, other than you can choose a different Lord. If some Lords don't want diversity or vibrancy, they should be free to set those rules.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener August 17, 2017 7:08 PM  

@38 The problem isn't that Nazi symbols upset Jews, it's that they upset normies who might otherwise be receptive.

Anonymous AB.Prosper August 17, 2017 7:16 PM  

Noah B The Savage Gardener wrote:@38 The problem isn't that Nazi symbols upset Jews, it's that they upset normies who might otherwise be receptive.

Precisely this. There are still living veterans of WW2 and their Boomer children around. No way is anyone normal going to be tolerant of Nazis symbolism.

At the rate we are going, in a few decades though? I suspect neither generation Z nor the diversity will give a crap about it and whatever comes past Gen Z, I dunno they aren't born so we can call them the post apocalypse generation will probably think its quaint old history and be able to see it for what it is without blinders

Anonymous AB.Prosper August 17, 2017 7:20 PM  

Oh yeah to note , Jeff Front is a new rendition of Tiny Duck

He's been pestering the Z blog as Trent Denton of late as well

he'll probably need to be deplatformed before he gets to be annoying.

Anonymous chedolf August 17, 2017 7:22 PM  

Lemur - The leftist Roman emperors, the leftist absolute monarchies of Europe, the leftist feudal lords... The libertarian outlook is highly reductive and autistic.

The right is about organic hierarchy, authority and order. The left is about erasing or ignoring natural differences.

Anonymous Whitey Whiteman III August 17, 2017 7:23 PM  

Muslims are the real, real leftists.

BTW, Gab got removed from the Google Play store.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents August 17, 2017 7:35 PM  

@43
Vox has Ayn Rand and Jonah Goldberg (and me) on his side that commies and socialists are collectivists and similar in many ways, so they are left.

Vox has himself. He doesn't need Rand or Goldbrick.

Johnson has Moldberg on his side.

Then he's already lost.

Anonymous Eduardo August 17, 2017 7:36 PM  

Pretty shitty so far Mate.

Greg is elegant, but want see a infighter or at least an outfighter with a cannon.

Greg is... mushy XD.

Blogger Salt August 17, 2017 7:36 PM  

To the debate... Greg is dancing. He's trying to pigeon hole the ~nazis into the right. He's doing it so wrong even if there were a right way to try and do it.

Dance, Greg, dance.

Blogger Elocutioner August 17, 2017 7:38 PM  

Greg shows up to a debate titled "Are National Socialists a legitimate element of the Alt-Right?" and to defend his affirmation position that they are says that definitions aren't helpful and that socialism is a good thing and lets redefine what the left-right spectrum should be. He sounds like a nice guy but utterly failed to make his case.

Anonymous Millenial WasteLand August 17, 2017 7:40 PM  

Precisely this. There are still living veterans of WW2 and their Boomer children around. No way is anyone normal going to be tolerant of Nazis symbolism.

Anyone normal =/= WW2 gramps and Boomers.

The memes are meant for Millenials.

Blogger Tim_W_Burke August 17, 2017 7:45 PM  

Has anyone on Stormfront argued for nationalization of industries?

OpenID TradDadSTL August 17, 2017 7:48 PM  

An error is made by assuming that "National Socialism" in 2017, in the U.S. would look anything like German National Socialism 1932. Leftism *would* look the same in every country, however, because it is universal..

Blogger S1AL August 17, 2017 7:49 PM  

"Anyone normal =/= WW2 gramps and Boomers.

The memes are meant for Millenials."

And a lot of Millennials have ancestors who fought in WW2. But your obsessing over details. Right-wing millennials despise Nazis and Antifa equally. Moderates despise Nazis and, if wholely ignorant, think Antifa is just another group of idiot fringe radicals. At best. Right and center: that's the target audience. And we despise Nazis. Get over​ it.

Anonymous Ghost of George III, Rex (still your rightful sovereign, you ungrateful wretched colonials) August 17, 2017 7:53 PM  

What fool from a land torn from our rightful hand by left-wing revolutionaries who chased out the real conservatives aka "Tories" and Empire Loyalists thinks they have the authority to simply usurp the mantle of "right wing" from the exclusive use by our loyal subjects? Only those who remained loyal in British North America are properly conservatives and therefore of "the right". You are all liberals and you yet live to lie in the filth of the license for perversity that your individual liberty and equality opened the door to. Words cannot just change their meaning over time - that is just crazy talk. Right wing always is and always shall be loyalty to the crown. Once the correct term is found there is no logic to changing it. Similarly, fashions only change because they are searching for the ultimate iteration of each garment. Now that we have buckle shoes, we shall never ever go back to laces which wear out and break. Only imbeciles would do so. Why risk losing your footwear when so many knavish rascals are in need of a thorough royal asskicking. True conservative and right wing as determined by liberty "defenders"?! Pffft. Conservatives are about preserving order, culture and tradition. How have your so-called "conservatives" fared with that task in our absence? And how do these self-styled "true right" act if someone, anyone steps forward and expresses a desire to halt and reverse the spreading corrosion and actually demonstrates a willingness to fight those who poison your 'nation', if this increasingly godless ruin of yours can be called one?

Blogger roughcoat August 17, 2017 7:54 PM  

Actually, I don't despise "Nazis" nearly as much as the Alt Left. I think the Nazi LARPers are a bunch of foolish weirdos. Alt Left are a bunch of budding terrorists who want me dead simply because I exist.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 17, 2017 7:55 PM  

VD wrote:I find it amusing to be advised on how to debate.

Do you have any idea why people supposedly very skilled at it nevertheless run from debate with me?

You'll find out soon.


The SDL does not disappoint.

Anonymous reactionaryguy August 17, 2017 7:58 PM  

Good article.

Vox Day and most posters here I can respect. I agree with many of the views on the blog (but not all). Neonazism is not good for the movement. It makes Slavic people like myself less likely to support the group.

Vox Day I have two questions for you:

1)What you think of dropping the alt-right name (because it was coined by Spencer and is associated with neonazism but most people) and trying another name?

2)You are part Indian right? Do you mean American Aboriginal or Indians from India? What other ancestry do you have?

Anonymous WaterBoy August 17, 2017 7:58 PM  

Take Back The Right.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper August 17, 2017 7:59 PM  

Millenial WasteLand wrote:Precisely this. There are still living veterans of WW2 and their Boomer children around. No way is anyone normal going to be tolerant of Nazis symbolism.

Anyone normal =/= WW2 gramps and Boomers.

The memes are meant for Millenials.


I get that but way too many Millennial Whites are reflexively Cultural Marxists and there a lot of Boomers still around for it to be well timed

Besides, Hitler was a genocidal idiot and a loser who mass murdered other decent White people and National Socialism is incoherent and sucks as an economic system too.

In any case the Neo Nazis , KKK and White Supremacists are just parasites these days, the .Alt Right gave them a chance far ,more than they deserved , to act properly in public, control press exposure and be fucking quiet and they screwed it up repeatedly.

They are worthless, no an outright problem and as a movement untrustworthy and given they oppose some key ideas (we are not Supremacists and aren't Socialists ) they have zero place in the movement

This doesn't mean we have to join AntiFa or something, only that they aren't us and aren't going to get to ride on the .Alt Rights coattails period.

My answer to them is Go away goosestepping idiots and crawl back under a rock so the rest of the adults can save the West

Anonymous Paulus August 17, 2017 8:00 PM  

We can hope that it will split the national socialists away from the alt-right entirely. I was previously ambivalent about the role of edginess, which I have occasionally indulged in, but I must say, you were right about the whole NatSoc association, even for those using it ironically -- it is like giving an unarmed enemy a weapon against you, absolute lunacy in retrospect. Hopefully now saner heads will prevail.

Anonymous reactionaryguy August 17, 2017 8:01 PM  

I mean to post that in the from-nazis-mouth article btw.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 17, 2017 8:02 PM  

reactionaryguy wrote:1)What you think of dropping the alt-right name (because it was coined by Spencer and is associated with neonazism but most people) and trying another name?

Listen to the debate. Vox explicitly explains why dropping the name is pointless.

Anonymous Mycroft Jones August 17, 2017 8:03 PM  

I don't think there are any actual National Socialists. The LARPers who aren't paid provocateurs, are men have been demonized and marginalized to a point where they embraced the label that had been put on them. It is Agree and Amplify on a political level. It is the blowback from the left calling everyone "literally hitler". Anyone can have a weak or low time.

Blogger Student in Blue August 17, 2017 8:04 PM  

I wish Greg went a little more on to why Socialism is to the right. Then again if he did he'd realize why he was incorrect.

Pointing out to Greg that Pan-European stuff is the opposite of Nationalism stuck with him, I think.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:06 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Mycroft Jones August 17, 2017 8:06 PM  

To follow up the last comment, calling the Agree and Amplify guys Alt-Retart and Alt-Reich might work for some, but I think it is more effective to show them a better way forward. Give them something positive to replace the place they are currently in.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:06 PM  

Most of the debate was completely off-topic.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora August 17, 2017 8:07 PM  

Damn, Greg lost that one hard. From claiming Nazism has a place on the right to proclaiming the futility of defining the right. Plus, a total lack of interest in the value of rhetoric. Strikes me as a guy who is philosophically educated but has little tactical sense.

Blogger VD August 17, 2017 8:08 PM  

1)What you think of dropping the alt-right name (because it was coined by Spencer and is associated with neonazism but most people) and trying another name?

Stupid and pointless. The Jewish-owned Canadian Rebel Media was just dropped from a cruise because Nazi. They are attacking the people and the ideas, under any name.

2)You are part Indian right? Do you mean American Aboriginal or Indians from India? What other ancestry do you have?

American Indian. English, Irish, and Mexican.

Anonymous Anonymous August 17, 2017 8:08 PM  

ashv,

You missed the Kaiser's best quote from that interview: "A nation is created by families, a religion, traditions."

Blogger VD August 17, 2017 8:09 PM  

Most of the debate was completely off-topic.

None of my first 15 minutes was. Of course it went off-topic. His only other option was to surrender. His one point of attempted push-back, private industry, was false.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:09 PM  

this is not hard.

If someone shows up at your event with nazi garb... politely escort them away.

If someone starts throwing up hitler solutes at your even... politely escort them away.

How much hitler can we tolerate?

0. None. Not even one tiny hint.

Blogger Cecil Henry August 17, 2017 8:10 PM  

They both had some good points.

But it seems they both agreed... LARPing Nazi fools are damaging and beyond useless.

Greg was more annoyed by the damage these idiots do then Vox, so why the disagreement??

Greg is a great speaker and planner and must be encouraged.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:10 PM  

VD wrote:Most of the debate was completely off-topic.

None of my first 15 minutes was. Of course it went off-topic. His only other option was to surrender. His one point of attempted push-back, private industry, was false.


Ah, I showed up 10 minutes late.

Anonymous Mycroft Jones August 17, 2017 8:11 PM  

If you ever meet a Nazi or KKK or White Supremacist who genuinely believes and understands the history and symbolism, then you have found yourself a government informer who is trying to drum up business for himself; he gets paid for every citizen he can lure into jail.

The Nazi shouting the loudest and goose-stepping the highest? FBI agent.

Blogger Student in Blue August 17, 2017 8:11 PM  

0. None. Not even one tiny hint.

Not even a microhitler? How about a picohitler?

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:12 PM  

"None of my first 15 minutes was. Of course it went off-topic. His only other option was to surrender. His one point of attempted push-back, private industry, was false."

I have no idea why he even bothered to try this. He hadn't even been prepared for the material you had already made public.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:12 PM  

"Not even a microhitler? How about a picohitler?"

if your mustache grows slightly thicker in the middle than the rest of it... shave.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:12 PM  

I like how Greg said the question of whether Nazis are Alt-Right isn't the important question, when that's the topic of debate.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener August 17, 2017 8:14 PM  

@80 1 micohitler = 5 dead. So, no.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:14 PM  

The comment stream was right about one thing and one thing only...do Anglin next!

Blogger Crave August 17, 2017 8:15 PM  

This wasn't a debate. It was a capitulation. Is Greg Johnson a cuckservative?

Anonymous Mycroft Jones August 17, 2017 8:16 PM  

Similarly, if someone seems to be a KKK Grand Dragon... they're an FBI informant.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:17 PM  

Crave wrote:This wasn't a debate. It was a capitulation. Is Greg Johnson a cuckservative?

No, he's just not that bright.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:18 PM  

Mycroft Jones wrote:If you ever meet a Nazi or KKK or White Supremacist who genuinely believes and understands the history and symbolism, then you have found yourself a government informer who is trying to drum up business for himself; he gets paid for every citizen he can lure into jail.

The Nazi shouting the loudest and goose-stepping the highest? FBI agent.


This is only mostly true. If they have poor social skills, odds are on a true believer. If they are charismatic, pick your words carefully because you're on candid camera.

Anonymous Walter Oleg August 17, 2017 8:20 PM  

Good discussion. GJ is a very smart and well read person. He banned me from his site after I told him he shouldn't post Daily Stormer articles on his site. I hope it's not down tomorrow.

I think some street presence is a good idea (along with political theater as suggested by GJ), but it must be more disciplined aesthetically. No nazi, no kkk, no sieghiel at our rally, hey!

One lesson I got from watching Charlottsville is that I don't have my self sorted out well enough to be anything but an occasional internet commentor.



Anonymous Anonymous August 17, 2017 8:20 PM  

Nate by Nazi garb do you mean generally speaking the symbols found in this gallery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_symbolism or even broader and things like fasces falange arrows, newish stuff like TWP. Are there native American right wing symbols anyway besides southern oriented things (I don't consider Gadsden right wing).

Blogger Mr.MantraMan August 17, 2017 8:21 PM  

Two kinds of people in Murka 2.0, Protected Class people and Nahtzees

Blogger Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc August 17, 2017 8:23 PM  

Greg Johnson hates National Socialism and National Socialists, he's not objective

National Socialism is the logical extension of Nationalism.

If some aspect of capitalism isn't working out for your nation, you would not sit idly by and let it wreck you, you would regulate or control it as needed, if doing so would benefit your nation.

Sometimes regulations can't help, but in many situations they can, for example of a tribe of aliens had secured control of the internet infrastructure and were using it to shut down communications, you might regulate that infrastructure as a public utility or even seize strategic aspects of it.

Or you might decide that food or armaments production would ought not to be sent overseas, even though your nation may not technically have a comparative advantage in it.

In most cases the question of how to govern is an empirical fact based question, that will lean towards freedom and small government, low welfare.

But those who do not reserve the MORAL RIGHT to govern and intervene as needed are simply not doing what they can to look after the interests of their nation.

Get away from the autistic libertarian conception of socialism vs capitalism and recognize that most nations today are mixed economies that combine aspects of public and private ownership, aspects of free enterprise and regulation, etc. and this is normal and works fine. NS Germany was not conceptually different.

You better believe I reserve the right to regulate the fuck out of google, facebook, etc and it may even be better to put some aspects of the core internet infrastructure under public, rather than private control.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:23 PM  

@90

When you're running one of these things you don't have time to inspect every little thing. The Nazi Larpers want everyone to know they are Nazi Larpers. They are doing it for attention. So they call attention to themselves.

You look and if you immediately recognize Nazi crap... you have two nice polite men in nice black suits calmly escort them away.

Blogger Mercy August 17, 2017 8:24 PM  

Cecil Henry wrote:Greg was more annoyed by the damage these idiots do then Vox, so why the disagreement??

The line towards the end about cleaning up vomit was noteworthy. If we spend our time cleaning others' messes, do we have much time for winning? That is the benefit of caring about definitions: clarity facilitates productive effort. Let the Left clean after the Left.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:24 PM  

"National Socialism is the logical extension of Nationalism."

FULL STOP.

Wrong.

Blogger Krul August 17, 2017 8:24 PM  

Intentionally or not, this debate turned into a massive reframe of the Nazi issue into a simple dichotomy. Either

1) Nazis are not part of the Alt-Right, or

2) they shouldn't be.

Blogger Durandel Almiras August 17, 2017 8:26 PM  

Greg looked bad in this interview. He dodged the issue, came off unprepared, meandered and never made a well argued point (kinda hard to do when you dodge the issue) and he had the speaking cadence of a bored, almost retired professor. He capitulated and everyone knows it.

Thanks for doing this Vox. Would love to see Anglin try to argue you.

Blogger S1AL August 17, 2017 8:26 PM  

"Are there native American right wing symbols anyway besides southern oriented things (I don't consider Gadsden right wing)."

The Gadsden flag is definitely right wing and triggers the hell out of leftists. I think it could be modernized with red/white/blue colorization to make it more normal and less "slightly crazy militia".

Just the American flag, worn unabashedly, is right-wing.

MAGA has been declared "covert white supremacist", which translates to "right wing" in the loony-left lexicon.

Anonymous Lazarus North August 17, 2017 8:27 PM  

Neo-Nazism and the KKK have long been an FBI playground. There is a joke about Klan meetings being an informal get-together of FBI informants. I remember one incident from before the rise of the alt-right, where a Nazi rally managed to attract all of about 12 marchers. There were more cops and protesters than Nazis. And the kicker is that the whole thing was organized by a federal agent.

Given that history, it is the height of stupidity to embrace self-professed national socialists as part the alt-right. You only heighten the risk of subversion by government provocateurs.

Blogger John Williams August 17, 2017 8:27 PM  

@Unknown, I'm off grid and didnt have the bandwidth to open the link. I'll catch it later.

Anonymous Walter Oleg August 17, 2017 8:29 PM  

By the way, I think GJ won the debate because he gets the bigger issue, which is that this whole debate about "NS not being rightwing" is pretty pointless. However, I think reasonable men would agree that WN 1.0 symbolism needs be gone. So if that was agreed upon between the two, I consider this a constructive conversation.

Anonymous Battlefrog August 17, 2017 8:29 PM  

I had to stop mid-way through Greg's rebuttal. Too much cringe. I felt bad for him. Seems like a nice enough guy, but he just wasn't prepared.

Anonymous PAC August 17, 2017 8:30 PM  

"I like how Greg said the question of whether Nazis are Alt-Right isn't the important question, when that's the topic of debate."

Greg's underlying point was that what mattered most, what ought to orient debate, was the survival of the race, and that in that regard there were ideological elements of NS worth preserving. "Whether Nazis are Alt-Right" doesn't make much sense since the Alt-Right is still in process, and not a set program to which conformity can be assessed. (Unless you already accept Vox's prescriptions as definitive.) The question was really whether NS *ought* to be considered part of the movement.

As an aside, I thought Greg eloquent, philosophically impressive--and adult. The US high-school debating club attitude of competitive point-scoring in the comments here is rather pathetic.

Blogger Heian-kyo Dreams August 17, 2017 8:30 PM  

Enjoyed the discussion, glad Greg took up your offer.

Blogger Krul August 17, 2017 8:31 PM  

@93 "The Nazi Larpers want everyone to know they are Nazi Larpers. They are doing it for attention. So they call attention to themselves."

To be fair, there is value in that. It breaks people of the paralyzing fear of being labeled racist, antisemitic, etc by getting people used to the imagery and associating it with fun. I think things like "muh six gorillion" jokes and (((echoes))) have done a lot to improve the discourse piercing the most sacred cows of liberals and cuckservatives alike.

Blogger Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc August 17, 2017 8:31 PM  

@Nate

Not an argument

What if we had to nationalize key aspects of the internet infrastructure and regulate them as public utilities in order to secure the future of our people?

That's socialism.

And if you put your nation above any particular economic philosophy, and you think it's truly the pragmatic option, you'll do it.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:31 PM  

". If we spend our time cleaning others' messes, do we have much time for winning? "

This is it exactly. They ALWAYS do more harm than good. Sometimes they do it deliberately out of malicious stupidity... and sometimes they do it on accident... out of a copious amount of normal stupidity.

Either way... they will never never do anything positive. They will never help you win.

As I have said many times... and as Vox discovered when he asked if they cared about winning.

They are not even playing the same game we are. So how can they be us?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 17, 2017 8:33 PM  

@58. Ghost of George III, Rex (still your rightful sovereign, you ungrateful wretched colonials)

No king but Jesus. You have to go back.

Blogger VD August 17, 2017 8:34 PM  

Thanks for doing this Vox. Would love to see Anglin try to argue you.

I will be happy to take him on.

Blogger S1AL August 17, 2017 8:34 PM  

"It breaks people of the paralyzing fear of being labeled racist, antisemitic, etc by getting people used to the imagery and associating it with fun."

There is nobody on the planet who has ever associated a swastika with "fun". Even literal Nazis were members of the least-fun people in existence (seriously... GERMANS).

This idiocy has to stop.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 17, 2017 8:34 PM  

@55
Has anyone on Stormfront argued for nationalization of industries?

We don't care. Neither should you.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:36 PM  

"Not an argument"

an argument is not necessary. You just said A=/A. You're arguing collectivism is right wing.

It isn't.

If you love socialism so hang out at Daily Kos where you be long ya pinko lefty.

Blogger Nate73 August 17, 2017 8:36 PM  

Vox Day what do you think of the Youtube demonetizations that have ramped up in the last month? Is that a prelude to explicit banning of users?

Blogger Student in Blue August 17, 2017 8:37 PM  

Via the magic of muddy wording, socialism can be both left-wing AND right-wing!

Blogger Krul August 17, 2017 8:38 PM  

@110 Not a Murdoch Murdoch fan, eh?

To be fair, it occurred to me after posting that I was probably thinking more of trolling, rather than LARPing.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:38 PM  

VD wrote:Thanks for doing this Vox. Would love to see Anglin try to argue you.

I will be happy to take him on.


Be aware he's a bit autistic, and I don't say that as a compliment or an insult. If you imagine you're prepping for a debate with Koanic, you should be fine. Koanic is smarter but Anglin is no dummy and he will be much more prepared than Johnson.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:38 PM  

This isn't hard. You don't belong to the group you claim. You belong to the group that claims you.

You say "I'm a socialist" amongs a bunch of right wingers... and they will not claim you. They will reject you and kick you out. You are not them.

You say it around a bunch of leftists... and they will embrace you.

You can jerk yourself into a is/ought knot if you want. It doesn't matter. You're a socialist. You know not us.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 17, 2017 8:40 PM  

@92 Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc

National Socialism is the logical extension of Nationalism.

You have to go back.

Anonymous kHz August 17, 2017 8:40 PM  

Good debate. Well done Vox, that was a very concise slaughter.

It did get pulled off-topic, but because a lot of people are in a state of anxiety. Understandable, especially for those being directly attacked right now. Stops people seeing things clearly, and imagining beyond the next week.

The collapse of Greg's rationalisations though, his attempts at constructing a hasty scaffold in mid-air, demonstrates how dangerous it is to not have the moral force of the truth behind you, and facts on which to build.
Truth, accuracy, clarity and definitions matter (and help to reduce anxiety). That's why they're always attacked by the Left.

And the alt-left.

Blogger Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc August 17, 2017 8:41 PM  

"an argument is not necessary. You just said A=/A. You're arguing collectivism is right wing."

Nationalism is collectivist

It's based on a group of people acting collectively to secure their collective interests

Collectivism is not inherently good or bad, right or left, you just need a healthy balance between positive elements of collectivism (as in COLLECTIVE SELF DEFENSE) with positive elements of individualism

Obv.

Blogger Durandel Almiras August 17, 2017 8:41 PM  

Islam and Communism have no place in the West. The Alt-Reichtard have to go back along with the Muzzies and their cars of peace and cultural enrichment.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 17, 2017 8:41 PM  

Nate wrote:an argument is not necessary. You just said A=/A. You're arguing collectivism is right wing.

It isn't.


Vox harped on philosophical consistency in the debate. I had always rejected collectivism on the grounds that it was leftwing. But nationalism is collectivist...and therefore apparently leftwing.

What am I missing?

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:42 PM  

Socialism must lead to communism. By default. Because with socialism you will always run out of other people's money.

And when you nation runs out of its own money by sucking its productive class dry... it then must turn to globalism to feed the always hungry bureaucratic beast.

And globalist socialism... is communism.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:43 PM  

" But nationalism is collectivist...and therefore apparently leftwing."

You're being a binary thinker.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 17, 2017 8:43 PM  

@106 Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc
What if we had to nationalize key aspects of the internet infrastructure and regulate them as public utilities in order to secure the future of our people?


We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

What if you went back?

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:43 PM  

a nation that looks out for the good of its individuals is still nationalist.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 17, 2017 8:44 PM  

@114 Student in Blue
Via the magic of muddy wording, socialism can be both left-wing AND right-wing!

Floor wax AND dessert topping?

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:44 PM  

Nate wrote:Socialism must lead to communism. By default. Because with socialism you will always run out of other people's money.

And when you nation runs out of its own money by sucking its productive class dry... it then must turn to globalism to feed the always hungry bureaucratic beast.

And globalist socialism... is communism.


^ This. Socialism requires expansionism, just as fascism requires eternal war.

Blogger Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc August 17, 2017 8:45 PM  

"Via the magic of muddy wording, socialism can be both left-wing AND right-wing!"

The Ancien Regime operated several state owned industries, manufacturing certain specialty goods

This is a form of non-Marxist socialism (a social system or theory in which the government owns and controls the means of production)

Found in the original example of "The most right wing thing"

Anonymous PAC August 17, 2017 8:46 PM  

114.

That's a lot less magical than automatically assuming capitalism to be right-wing, given how destructive it is of traditional social order. You ought to have a look at the Church's social teaching over the past couple hundred years.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:46 PM  

Nate wrote:" But nationalism is collectivist...and therefore apparently leftwing."

You're being a binary thinker.



He's right though, according to the terms Vox appears to favor. If you define right-left as being equivalent to the individualist-collectivist axis, nationalism is leftward of tribalism and rightward of globalism.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 17, 2017 8:47 PM  

Nate wrote:" But nationalism is collectivist...and therefore apparently leftwing."

You're being a binary thinker.


I'm a midwit, I frequently can't see past binary thinking until someone explains it to me. That's why I asked.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 17, 2017 8:50 PM  

My thinking has been there are different kinds of "collectivism", and that "collectivism" in terms of the State is inherently Leftist, whereas other forms (i.e., familial, community) are not. Just not sure.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:50 PM  

I think Nate is using multiple axes to judge "rightness" without explicitly saying so, because he's extremely neurotypical and therefore assumes everybody should know everything important without being told.

Blogger S1AL August 17, 2017 8:50 PM  

Putting milk in your tea doesn't make it not-tea. Pour out your tea and fill it with milk, or drown the tea until you can't taste it, then it's not-tea.

Given to whom I'm offering this analogy, the milk in this example is aspects of socialism.

The other problem is that, in this case, adding milk to your tea somehow turns it into milk over time. Cause socialist black magic.

Blogger Krul August 17, 2017 8:50 PM  

@120 "Nationalism is collectivist

It's based on a group of people acting collectively to secure their collective interests"

That's not collectivism. Collectivism doesn't mean people working together, it means that the interests and rights of the individual are subordinated to the rights and interests of a group.

If people working together is collectivism, then every family, business, and ship's crew is collectivist.

Blogger VD August 17, 2017 8:51 PM  

Be aware he's a bit autistic, and I don't say that as a compliment or an insult. If you imagine you're prepping for a debate with Koanic, you should be fine. Koanic is smarter but Anglin is no dummy and he will be much more prepared than Johnson.

It won't matter in the slightest. No one who is forced to argue 2+2=37 is going to beat me. There is no fog of words they can create that will hide the sleight of hand from me.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 17, 2017 8:52 PM  

@129. Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc

The Ancien Regime operated several state owned industries, manufacturing certain specialty goods


Let me check my calendar. Nope, it's not 1700 and the Sun King is still dead. Irrelevant example. You have to go back.

Blogger S1AL August 17, 2017 8:53 PM  

And if you don't understand that, "The Communist Manifesto" lays it all out in plain detail. What's scary is how many of Marx's 12 aspects are already in place.

Blogger Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc August 17, 2017 8:53 PM  

"a nation that looks out for the good of its individuals is still nationalist."

You could operate a STATE OWNED factory for the manufacture / maintenance of defensive nuclear weapons and still look out for the good of the individuals in your nation.

In fact it the individuals in your nation are probably much better off if you do that. And that's a form of SOCIALISM.

This does not imply that you force them to work on collective farms or anything of the sort.Of course you'd have a normal mixed economy, likely leaning heavily towards free enterprise.

Merely that you (or the people, whoever governs) have a willingness to step in and exercise power when the good of the nation demands it.

If the situation is demanding that you exercise power on behalf of your nation, for example to take control of a key piece of internet infrastructure, but you refuse to do it on capitalist principles, you're not following through on your nationalist values.

P.S. I'm not vietnamese this is just a name I used on here from years ago

Anonymous reactionaryguy August 17, 2017 8:53 PM  

How do we combat both Modern Liberalism (basically leftist)
and Muslims within Europe at the same time?

I have a theory that the Socialists and Liberal Internationalists
want to turn Muslims into Liberals.
While the Jesuits want to turn Muslims into Catholics. (this was one of their original motives before the Protestant revolution).

Blogger Mr.MantraMan August 17, 2017 8:53 PM  

This is farce now, the gals of the Left are basically bitching that a modern version of the Waffen SS have not marched thru and taken them, and you Gents are taking the gals at face value

Blogger Francis The Pope August 17, 2017 8:55 PM  

I live in South Africa, so in terms of what the best practical approach of gaining political power for white people is, is obviously pointless. I don't think embracing National Socialism will be able to save the whites anywhere in the world, but I cannot see any other ideology saving it now either. The overwhelming third world population numbers mixed with the relentless left wing propaganda from the big corporations makes the end of whites everywhere in the world almost inevitable.

Somebody here raised the issue of who was "larping", being completely ignorant or being true believer in National Socialism, I consider myself a true believer. A true believer in the sense that had the Third Reich triumphed (the triumph would have to include the dismantling of the USA, not just the USSR), then the white race would be able to survive, and whites would certainly still be ruling South Africa, and there would be no mayor in London who was from Pakistan. I can understand that many of the people from America here don't want to hear defeatist talk, but I have a feeling that eventually all whites will end up like me, thinking that the last chance to save us was really in WW2.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:56 PM  

Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc wrote:In fact it the individuals in your nation are probably much better off if you do that. And that's a form of SOCIALISM.

You are defining socialism as "state action toward common good". That's not what it is.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:56 PM  

"I think Nate is using multiple axes to judge "rightness" without explicitly saying so, because he's extremely neurotypical and therefore assumes everybody should know everything important without being told."

I don't have time to bother with the short bus.

Anonymous Roundtine August 17, 2017 8:57 PM  

Greg took up Vox's debate offer and frankly, he probably made about the best case for them being included on the Right.

I came in thinking Greg would debate Vox hard because I thought he was more sympathetic to national socialism, but in a practical sense I have to dig to find a point of disagreement that is worth arguing over except as an intellectual exercise.

I'm surprised a consensus has formed so quickly across the AltRight.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 17, 2017 8:57 PM  

@140. Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc

You can walk back your silly argument until you fall off the edge of the earth and land on the first turtle shell, it still isn't relevant.


P.S. I'm not vietnamese this is just a name I used on here from years ago


You have to go back.

Blogger Francis The Pope August 17, 2017 8:58 PM  

I need to clarify what I meant when I said "all whites", all whites that have not completely accepted all left wing thinking.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 8:58 PM  

"You could operate a STATE OWNED factory for the manufacture / maintenance of defensive nuclear weapons and still look out for the good of the individuals in your nation."

Shhhh...

The Daily Kos is over there.

Blogger Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc August 17, 2017 8:59 PM  

"That's not collectivism. Collectivism doesn't mean people working together, it means that the interests and rights of the individual are subordinated to the rights and interests of a group.

If people working together is collectivism, then every family, business, and ship's crew is collectivist. "

In Nationalism the interests and rights of the individual are broadly speaking, subordinated to the rights and interests of a group, within certain confines, such as a bill of rights or constitution for example.

The Nation may respect the individuals rights and interests in many ways, but ultimately a nationalist government would put the Nation first, not the interests of an individual, even if he was a powerful and wealthy donor who owned a giant multinational corporation named after a river in South America that was strangling commerce and retail in the Nation.

That's why it's America (the collective) first, not Bezos (the individual) first. Indeed, in situations where the interests of the individual and the nation conflicted, the Nation might well end up regulating the fuck out of a Bezos or a Zuckerberg, infringing on their interests for the good of the nation.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 8:59 PM  

Nate wrote:I don't have time to bother with the short bus.

Christian charity means people who are better off use their leisure time to help out the less fortunate.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 17, 2017 9:02 PM  

Nate wrote:a nation that looks out for the good of its individuals is still nationalist.

That makes sense now. Thanks.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 9:02 PM  

"Christian charity means people who are better off use their leisure time to help out the less fortunate."

certainly.

And when the war is won and we're figuring out what to do with the spoils I promise I will advocate for them.

But they don't get a seat at the table. Because they'll shit on it.

Anonymous Patron August 17, 2017 9:02 PM  

Hmm, can't really say Greg Johnson came off all that well in this debate. I think I'd summarise his position as "yeah but" in the end. I don't think he helped himself by arguing (a) they're part of the right, AND (b) they're really f---ing stupid either.

Vox Day vs Andrew Anglin I'd like to see, but only because of the spectacle. Really doubt he'd willingly jump feet first into the wood chipper though :( ...

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:02 PM  

Hopefully it's obvious I'm not saying you have to give up bullying the socialists. It's good to have fun too.

Blogger Matthew August 17, 2017 9:02 PM  

Aeoli Pera wrote:I think Nate is using multiple axes to judge "rightness" without explicitly saying so, because he's extremely neurotypical and therefore assumes everybody should know everything important without being told.

LOL, yes, that's Nate.

Blogger S1AL August 17, 2017 9:04 PM  

At least we're getting a good explanation as to why "nationalism" is mentally associated with "nationalization".

Look, socialism is a premise that the individual is the property of the state. They won't say it out loud, of course, but that's the fundamental aspect. The existence of the USPS does not make the US socialist. It simply means that the government provided the service because it was needed and unavailable, so it was in the best interest of the nation. Legitimate act under nationalism.

Now, if the government seized UPS "for the good of the state", that would be socialism.

Understand?

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:04 PM  

Nate wrote:"Christian charity means people who are better off use their leisure time to help out the less fortunate."

certainly.

And when the war is won and we're figuring out what to do with the spoils I promise I will advocate for them.

But they don't get a seat at the table. Because they'll shit on it.


At least we're agreed on the main things, even if we disagree on some details.

Deus vult.

Blogger Nate August 17, 2017 9:04 PM  

its simple.

A kid with downs syndrome will probably REALLY want to help the fire fighters if his home is on fire.

But giving him the hose isn't going to put the fire out. In fact it will likely get the fire fighters hurt.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 17, 2017 9:05 PM  

To be fair, not a socialist or sympathizer... but I realized how the question was going to come across.

Anonymous Mycroft Jones August 17, 2017 9:06 PM  

Aeoli, the troo believers with poor social skills don't last long; Nazi ideology is an incoherent swamp; they move on quickly, retaining the 16 points of the Alt-Right when they leave the swamp, usually fairly quickly. neo-Nazism preaches "love your brother, defend your family" where up to now, noone else has been. Now there is the Alt-Right.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:09 PM  

I'm willing to debate the Nazi Question if you want to take the time right nowr.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 17, 2017 9:11 PM  

150. Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc
In Nationalism the interests and rights of the individual are broadly speaking, subordinated to the rights and interests of a group, within certain confines, such as a bill of rights or constitution for example.

Still not collectivism. Goalpost moving is futile.
You have to go back.

Anonymous Lazarus North August 17, 2017 9:12 PM  

...And the kicker is that the whole thing was organized by a federal agent.

Sorry, I may be mistaken on this story. Probably it was an informant rather than an agent.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 17, 2017 9:12 PM  

S1AL wrote:At least we're getting a good explanation as to why "nationalism" is mentally associated with "nationalization".

[…]

Understand?

1. I had always made that association, but then again, I had never put any thought into nationalism whatsoever until a few years ago. I always thought in libertarian terms.
2. Yes.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:12 PM  

Mycroft Jones wrote:Aeoli, the troo believers with poor social skills don't last long; Nazi ideology is an incoherent swamp; they move on quickly, retaining the 16 points of the Alt-Right when they leave the swamp, usually fairly quickly. neo-Nazism preaches "love your brother, defend your family" where up to now, noone else has been. Now there is the Alt-Right.

Sure, it's incoherent. The problem is that the feeling of brotherhood and purpose gives genuine comfort to people who are hurting and lonely because their society hates them and their authority figures have betrayed them.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 17, 2017 9:14 PM  

I get that but way too many Millennial Whites are reflexively Cultural Marxists and there a lot of Boomers still around for it to be well timed

As someone mentioned in another thread, even /pol/ has figured out that offensive symbols that are fun for shocking newfags in an online forum don't necessarily belong in the real-life public square. It's not that hard.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:15 PM  

Ultimately, it's the same combination of alienation and neuroticism that drives low-IQ whites into Wicca and high-IQ whites into pagan occultism.

Blogger Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc August 17, 2017 9:15 PM  

"Socialism must lead to communism. By default. Because with socialism you will always run out of other people's money."

Funny, we see a lot of countries in the world today with aspects of state ownership and/or regulation, but very little in the way of communist countries.

In a common sense mixed economy consisting of a mixture public ownership and private ownership, markets and economic interventionism...you would simply use socialist policies where beneficial (rarely, typically for strategic national interests) and use capitalist policies where they'd be beneficial (most of the time).

Assuming you avoided certain perverse incentives like much in the way of welfare, there is no real reason that socialist program such as a state owned domain registrar operated in the interests of the nation would... lead to communism.

You guys seem to be very hung up on the definitions of words, but National Socialist Germany was not a communist country with full state ownership, it still had huge amounts of private ownership. It was a mixed economy, like the United States or most other countries today.

This differentiates it from a libertarian country. What differentiates it from the modern United States is that the policies of government and state intervention in the economy were theoretically directed towards securing the interests of the nation.

If you got the chance to re-do a similar nationalist government, you'd probably want to go less public, more private. But it's hard to argue that you'd want to go zero public, all private. That's more like An-Cap.

Blogger VD August 17, 2017 9:17 PM  

You guys seem to be very hung up on the definitions of words

Imagine that.

Blogger S1AL August 17, 2017 9:17 PM  

@Dissident Right -

That was actually directed at (Win then Phook). Quoting gets tiresome on my phone.

I also don't think (general) libertarianism is incompatible with nationalism. Like Socialism, it's a premise: apply it where possible.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:17 PM  

Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc wrote:"Socialism must lead to communism. By default. Because with socialism you will always run out of other people's money."

Funny, we see a lot of countries in the world today with aspects of state ownership and/or regulation, but very little in the way of communist countries.


I repeat: You are defining socialism as "state action toward common good". That's not what it is.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:19 PM  

Here, I'll help you clarify your thoughts.

"Socialism is a subset of collectivism."

Blogger S1AL August 17, 2017 9:19 PM  

"It was a mixed economy, like the United States or most other countries today."

It was neo-feudalism with an aristocracy and a tyrant instead of a straight-up tyranny. Which is what socialism ALWAYS turns into.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 17, 2017 9:20 PM  

I think it is more effective to show them a better way forward.

I think so too, and I think we're all glad to do that. For the most part, the ridicule and arguments here are not for the young men who have been attracted to the Alt-Reich because they're pissed off and shocking people is fun. The harshness is for the leaders and would-be leaders who should know better by now what works and what doesn't, but who don't care if they damage the Right as long as they get to keep leading their little fiefdoms.

Anonymous User August 17, 2017 9:21 PM  

Monarchism is the union of nationalism and individualism. The monarch is the personification of the nation and is also an individual. At that point any policy he chooses is "individualistic" just as a paterfamilias providing for his family is individualistic.

The Fuhrer assumed the ancient role of Pater Patriae. That appeal to ancient tradition is categorically on the Right.

Anyhow that's probably the tack I'd take if I wanted to argue this dialectically. There's no way to beat the rhetorical reframe I can think of because nazis are literally losers.

Blogger Lazarus August 17, 2017 9:22 PM  

DissidentRight wrote:Vox harped on philosophical consistency in the debate. I had always rejected collectivism on the grounds that it was leftwing. But nationalism is collectivist...and therefore apparently leftwing.

What am I missing?


Don't accept the Wikipedia definition. It is bogus.

Miriam Webster: collectivism

n.
The principles or system of ownership and control of the means of production and distribution by the people collectively, usually under the supervision of a government.


Moshe Feiglin:

Zehut’s platform (his party) shows how the government apparatus can be reduced from 30 ministries to 11.

The government has two main jobs:
One: Security and Justice
Two: Don’t get in the way

MF is a ethno-nationalist. Jewish alt-right.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:23 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:I think it is more effective to show them a better way forward.

I think so too, and I think we're all glad to do that. For the most part, the ridicule and arguments here are not for the young men who have been attracted to the Alt-Reich because they're pissed off and shocking people is fun. The harshness is for the leaders and would-be leaders who should know better by now what works and what doesn't, but who don't care if they damage the Right as long as they get to keep leading their little fiefdoms.


This is where I think Vox is making a mistake. Leaders are chosen by their followers, not the other way around. If Mike Enoch disavows Indoaryan paganism they'll just find a new leader.

Blogger Krul August 17, 2017 9:25 PM  

@169 "National Socialist Germany was not a communist country with full state ownership, it still had huge amounts of private ownership."

Greg made a similar point. Hitler's government may not have interfered in the economy as much as it technically could have, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that the state resereved to itself the prerogative to interfere in the lives of individuals to an unlimited degree.

It's not that the Nazi government did or didn't exercise power, it's that it COULD HAVE if it had so desired. By contrast, due to constitutional constraints, the government of the USA can not breach the rights of individuals, at least in theory.

The government of the USA recognizes limits upon itself. Socialist governments, including Nazi Germany's, do not. That is what distinguishes collectivism.

Blogger Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc August 17, 2017 9:25 PM  

" You are defining socialism as "state action toward common good". That's not what it is."

No, I'm talking about state intervention and/or ownership of aspects of economy

The way in which the privatized internet infrastructure can now be used to completely de-platform the Alt-Right should be a hint that it is necessary to moralize a willingness to govern and intervene in private economic activity on behalf of the nation. The same might apply to industries of strategic military value.

You just counter-balance it with a practical understanding that doing so is typically not a good idea outside of exceptional circumstances.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:26 PM  

Leaders are chosen by their followers, not the other way around.

Not chosen, empowered. Important distinction.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:29 PM  

Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc wrote:" You are defining socialism as "state action toward common good". That's not what it is."

No, I'm talking about state intervention and/or ownership of aspects of economy


...for common good. And "state intervention and/or ownership of aspects of economy" is a subset of "state action". So actually, you're saying exactly what I said you're saying.

Blogger Krul August 17, 2017 9:29 PM  

@180 "No, I'm talking about state intervention and/or ownership of aspects of economy"

We don't have to be Nazis to do that. We already have a postal service.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 17, 2017 9:29 PM  

@171. S1AL - Regardless you answered my question.

@177. Lazarus - Thanks, makes sense. Seems obvious now...

Blogger Lazarus August 17, 2017 9:30 PM  

Aeoli Pera wrote:This is where I think Vox is making a mistake.

As Vox has pointed out, he is not The Guy.

Vox is Morpheus, not Neo. Neo will appear when the time is ripe.

Anonymous kHz August 17, 2017 9:30 PM  

'Leaders are chosen by their followers, not the other way around. If Mike Enoch disavows Indoaryan paganism they'll just find a new leader.'

Wouldn't that be the definition of a figurehead, rather than a leader?

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:31 PM  

The stupid thing is, there's an aspect of this where I agree with you, but you're stuck on the socialism thing because you're stuck on the Nazi aesthetics.

And don't claim you I can't read your mind, because I totally can.

Anonymous User August 17, 2017 9:31 PM  

"It's not that the Nazi government did or didn't exercise power, it's that it COULD HAVE if it had so desired. By contrast, due to constitutional constraints, the government of the USA can not breach the rights of individuals, at least in theory."

Pragmatically you just argued there is no difference between the ZOG Reich and the 3rd Reich. Now ask yourself who wrote the histories you base your beliefs on and what SJWs always do

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 17, 2017 9:32 PM  

kHz wrote:'Leaders are chosen by their followers, not the other way around. If Mike Enoch disavows Indoaryan paganism they'll just find a new leader.'

Wouldn't that be the definition of a figurehead, rather than a leader?


Nope. See here: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/alphabehavior.htm#dominance

Blogger Ransom Smith August 17, 2017 9:33 PM  

The stupid thing is, there's an aspect of this where I agree with you, but you're stuck on the socialism thing because you're stuck on the Nazi aesthetics.

I'll take the bait, what are you getting at Aeoli?

Blogger Cail Corishev August 17, 2017 9:33 PM  

To be fair, there is value in that. It breaks people of the paralyzing fear of being labeled racist, antisemitic, etc

Not if you do it in the middle of a large rally of men carrying torches. Context matters. What was the point of this rally? It was to peacefully object to removal of a statue, and more broadly the destruction of our culture. The purpose wasn't to shock people out of their PC-driven fears. Do that somewhere else.

A big public rally needs to appeal to the normal people who look at it. If possible, it should look like a church picnic. The fact that violent domestic terrorists may attack at any time puts some limits on how far you can go with that, but you can at least not shoot yourself in the foot by waving flags that distract from what you're trying to accomplish.

Blogger Krul August 17, 2017 9:34 PM  

@188 Learn to read.

Anonymous Causal Lurker August 17, 2017 9:39 PM  

106:

"What if we had to nationalize key aspects of the internet infrastructure and regulate them as public utilities in order to secure the future of our people?

That's socialism."

No, that's Arpanet.

The net has to reset.

Dr. Nguyen Van Phauc has to go back.

Anonymous Eduardo August 17, 2017 9:39 PM  

There are some deep divides in the whole Alt-Right definition. I have seen that for some time, but now you are pressuring against the crack and soon it will break.

it will be nasty =____=

Blogger Lazarus August 17, 2017 9:41 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:Context matters. What was the point of this rally? It was to peacefully object to removal of a statue, and more broadly the destruction of our culture. The purpose wasn't to shock people out of their PC-driven fears. Do that somewhere else.

Note the rally in Seattle conducted by the Patriot Prayer Group. Didn't attract MSM attention because it did not give them any ammunition. More Ghandi like, which is what you need when fighting an Empire.

Blogger Tim_W_Burke August 17, 2017 9:41 PM  

@111
Okay, so you do realize that the American Nazi doesn't care about economics, apart from closing borders and banning jews.
Just checking.

Anonymous kHz August 17, 2017 9:42 PM  

'Nope. See here'

I see. Yet a sufficient leader *could* lead a group out of Indoaryan paganism.

Like how Christianity came to the Saxons.

Blogger Nathan August 17, 2017 9:44 PM  

Vox - you made a comment above saying that it is pointless to consider dropping the alt-right label, because the media will seek to marginalize the ideas & people under any label.

However, after Trump's rhetorical reframing of Antifa as the alt-left, it appears that alt-right is becoming a toxic label even among the average Trump supporters. I agree with you that something like that 16 points will eventually be the cornerstone of ideology around which the New Right coalesces. But, after the alt-left "rhetorical kill shot", I no longer believe it will called the alt-right. Going forward, I predict that "alt-right" will be used as the category to isolate the LARPers and basement dwellers and keep them from stealing the attention from the necessary work. Like all Gammas, all the Alt-Reich really wanted was to be recognized as the Secret King.

Anonymous User August 17, 2017 9:45 PM  

One should always be pragmatic both in one's own actions and especially in one's apprehension of things.

Pragmatically all sovereigns have complete power over their subjects. If you think "muh constitution" makes you a citizen rather than a subject you're not tall enough for this ride.

I know the criterion for citizenship vs subjection and I can assure you the true citizens of the ZOG empire could comfortably fit in a large ballroom and I'd be shocked of any bother to post here

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